Deadhold

Re: Deadhold

Postby punkUser » 10 Sep 2014, 09:40

shadow wrote:Myth already has some (x86) Windows Tablet support u mean ?

As soon as any other platform that Myth 2 runs on supports touch we'll gladly add support too :) Anyways the point was not that many users play that way, but just that we've obviously tested it (and the barrier to entry here is pretty low now if someone is sufficiently curious... ~$120-150 x86 full windows tablets are available) and it works pretty well. Definitely way better than on a gamepad/console.

But yeah I agree on PC focus. Just saying it's totally possible to target both PC and tablet with similar gameplay in this genre, which is not true of many other genres (ex. FPS sucks on tablets).
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Re: Deadhold

Postby wwo » 10 Sep 2014, 14:46

tablet gamer = casual gamer

Might as well just make it a Facebook game, or browser/flash game.
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Re: Deadhold

Postby Dantski » 10 Sep 2014, 15:57

Would you play Angry Ghols on your phone?
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Re: Deadhold

Postby shadow » 11 Sep 2014, 06:41

What about Angry Dorfs ?
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Re: Deadhold

Postby par73 » 11 Sep 2014, 07:39

I'd buy both of those rather than Angry Birds
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Re: Deadhold

Postby fisj » 11 Sep 2014, 19:40

Hey all,

Some answers to comments and questions:

par73
Myth lobby - Myth would be our baseline, and we have yet to put a lot of thought into the design yet.
Controls - Yeah we're running controls that are pretty close to myth right now (kindof a mmo myth hybrid camera), but we'll probably try out a range of variations, and or give players configurability, with some presets.

shadow
Myth Lobby - By all means explore that. Like I said we don't have a definitive design. It's pretty interesting that the industry generally went with matchmaking, cutting out a huge social aspect. Presumably this is because consoles are the predominant platform for multiplayer FPS, and the sheer numbers of people aren't conducive to meaningful conversation. So, if Deadhold did have a myth-like lobby, or something akin to IRC, how could we keep it manageable? Would people like matchmaking as well?

More chances for comebacks - I think this is something that our ability and relic system will address, but we haven't gone into that much yet.
Tourney and stats - Yes, that's pretty much assumed. :)

c⁄J⁄Iılk c⁄J⁄Iån ◊§t◊
More complex fighting system - Yes the abilities and relic system extends unit capabilities through the commander, additionally the units will have vastly more choreography and personality, react to their environment etc. This is all possible because we have the power of polygons, skelletal meshes, Inverse Kinematics and behaviour trees.

shadow: Consoles, tablets, etc - fun discussion time!

Deadhold will be PC/Mac/Linux. We went through similar discussions, but it essentially boils down to a few factors:

1) PC gaming is back, with a vengeance. (thankfully) Steam is dominant, and extremely profitable.

2) Making a PC game, and a tablet or console game is making 2 or three games. RTT on a console sounds like (to put it nicely) a nightmare. Tablet _could_ work very well, but again the tempo and response will never match a PC, and pitting someone on a tablet, vs a PC in an MP match would be pretty one sided.

3) In my opinion, multiplayer on mobile isn't mature enough, or a strong enough demographic within mobile. The only time someone might want to run an MP match on a tablet would be on the couch, certainly not the usual use case, where people pull out a phone for 5 minutes outside while waiting for a sandwich. There's a reason why the average game/level time on mobile is easily in the single digits of minutes.

I always imagined that Myth was similar to playing a piano, and I always loved it when I felt like I was "in the zone". Its hard for me to imagine any other input than a mouse and keyboard achieving that. We do like money (its useful), but I think part of getting to the "money hats" level (imho) is knowing where a game's strengths lie, and on what platforms it shines brightest.

I'll throw out some other random high level ideas/categories:

Persistence, Progression, Skins and Armor (cosmetic), Custom cheers/taunts, Different and more complex behavior, chaining orders to units (walk along this spline, attack this unit with harassing behavior), unique attacks for specific units against others, ragdolls, different unit abilities and ways for them to interact with each other, landscapes can now be fully 3d, castle sieges, different gamemodes.

That said, the gameplay should remain simple, but deep, we're not trying to clutter up gameplay, we're sifting for the nuggets that will truely enhance the gameplay.

-fisj - (fisj@deadhold.com)
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Re: Deadhold

Postby Renwood » 11 Sep 2014, 22:51

I often have said that a future myth game if on consoles would have ZERO option to play it with a gamepad. You can buy a wireless mouse AND keyboard for around $20 these days. Consoles also have USB interface now, so they can use any old mouse or keyboard laying around to play something like Deadhold. That being said, sticking to a target platfrom of PC/mac/linux is better for production. When the game ships, you can always add other platforms like console later. Look at R* and GTA V, Next MONTH its coming to PC/XBone/PS4

People are used to paying a lot more $ for the entry level to play a game on their console. So for example if Deadhold was $40 on PC/mac/Linux then the console version could be $60 BUT it comes with a coupon or something to get a official Deadhold wireless mouse and keyboard through NewEgg mail order or something.
The company (Deadhold guys) would have to pay royalties for the Unreal4 engine game's use on console platform like XBone and the like.
That I believe do not exist when making the game for computer platforms. At least that is how it works for games made with Cryengine (which I follow very closely) In addition, you also need to pay royalties and money up front to get your games into the Xbox LIVE and Playstation market places.
but, with so many hundreds of millions of potential customers, we would not be looking at a "Point of diminishing returns" scenario.
Also the system specs are exactly the same on every console, thus making sure the game works for everybody in the same way without all kinds of crazy bugs due to the millions of different component configurations available on computers. i.e. its a lot quicker to bug fix and trouble shoot games targeted for consoles. I also tend to believe that a Myth-Like game is something that the console players are REALLY missing out on and could wow the hell out of them and be a "Must have" Then again, maybe they all just wanna play GTA and Madden. The flipside of this is that, if you make an AWESOME RTT/RTS/wargame on consoles, you will REALLY stand out due to there not being 1000 "ME TO" products on the console market. Where with Computers, there are TONS of RTS and war games to choose from.

About how not to make it look/feel like M3

Having played the HELL out of myth 3 back in the day (I was completely unstoppable on that game often killing all 5 other teams on a 6 team FFA map by myself with no problem) and since then (over 10 years now) having examined why m3 failed to get a following EVEN from the myth community and Bungie myth era players and what the issues were for the general consensus that M3 was just not "Mythy" enough in feel or gameplay. I always said that the next myth title should be awesome and sprite based in a 2014 kind of way. This is to nearly guarantee that is has that Mythy feel and gameplay and a better chance of not just getting die hard fans, but hundreds of thousands of all new fans as well. The following (Myth5) sequel or myth title would go full 3D in a modern engine though. There are too many benefits to going full 3D over sprites and if done correctly could fix 99% of the issues of 3D being not as good at the current sprite based system is. in addition a LOT of the problems that make 3D units not mythy enough has been a conversion ooga and I have been having for many years. We have found many ways to fix these issues and address this problem.

I would like to suggest that we all DO get on Myth III together and take some notes. Playing through the entire myth 3 solo/coop levels and lots of FFA for at least a few weeks so that people do not confuse the odd feelings of playing a new game and having to get used to it, with NOT liking something just because its different. Anything NEW feels very strange at first when you have played a similar game for years and years. When Myth 2 came out, after playing TFL for 14 months strait even myth 2 felt very strange and took getting used to. Just the addition of the twice as many frames of animation for M2's units vs TFL's half as many frames and thus choppy animations took getting used to. When you have to buy a new keyboard or mouse it feels very odd and takes at least a week or 2 to get used to after playing with the same ones for years. (I just bought new wireless mouse and keyboard and suffer from this)

Deadhold is a great idea, with an awesome engine running it, and a great team behind it with REAL m2srb-ish street cred as they have all been in the myth family since 1997. In case people do not know, fisj one of the main Deadhold devs created THE FIRST all NEW myth map ever made for TFL called "If I Had A Yeti" he made his own tools to do this with hex editing due to bungie not even having released ANY tools for people to make their own myth maps and content at the time. Also iggy worked on The BF1942 mod desert Combat which is one of the greatest mods of all time for any video game ever made, and used to have millions of players years ago.


There is hope for mythy gameplay now in ways there has never been before!

Sounds pretty PEACHIE to me!

-Renwood
Last edited by Renwood on 12 Sep 2014, 03:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Deadhold

Postby Renwood » 11 Sep 2014, 23:28

punkUser wrote:
shadow wrote:Myth already has some (x86) Windows Tablet support u mean ?

As soon as any other platform that Myth 2 runs on supports touch we'll gladly add support too :) Anyways the point was not that many users play that way, but just that we've obviously tested it (and the barrier to entry here is pretty low now if someone is sufficiently curious... ~$120-150 x86 full windows tablets are available) and it works pretty well. Definitely way better than on a gamepad/console.

But yeah I agree on PC focus. Just saying it's totally possible to target both PC and tablet with similar gameplay in this genre, which is not true of many other genres (ex. FPS sucks on tablets).


Punkuser, does this mean there is currently or you are going to add windows 8 touch enabled monitor support?
This would be the only reason I would EVER buy windows 8
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Re: Deadhold

Postby Gehennom » 12 Sep 2014, 05:58

fisj wrote:1) What are your top 3 Myth features - essential core parts that make Myth, Myth.

2) What ways can we improve Myth? Imagine you're Bungie sitting and watching Braveheart eating pizza, and you find yourself in 2014 with computers that are 100 times faster - what crazy ass things would you design now that you're not facing the same technological limitations?


1: The three top things that made myth feel good to play? Imo..

a) Battles are won (mostly) with strategy and pre-battle micro, rather than in-battle micro. If you engage your melee poorly, there's not much you can do, and if you engage well, you don't need to keep fiddling with things. You can archer dance a little, and aiming your dwarves well helps, but you can't stutterstep kite or anything. I think this mostly comes from the small amount of friction in your movement-- the turn speed, the hitstun, that makes it hard to effectively redirect units quickly. Makes the game a lot more about how smart you are with your troops, rather than how good you are at aps micro.

b) Games are quick. At the height of myth 2, you could complete a game, matchmaking and all, in 15 minutes. If you had 2 hours to play in a night, you could get 8 complete games in, with very different game types, troop compositions, and maps for each. If you're winning, you get to enjoy your victory quickly, and if you take an early beating, you don't have to wait very long before it's on to the next game. You can feel free to experiment with new strategies, because it doesn't cost you very much if it doesn't work out. Same goes if you're playing with your friends and someone wants to play a game type that you don't like as much.

c) Coordinating with your teammates, working together as a team, felt great. MCC was mostly into ffas, but those times when we ventured into the world of team play were wonderful, and I really wish I'd done more team play back in the day.

2: How would I improve Myth?

I'm not entirely sure. I would like the game to be more friendly to new players. Myth 2 shipping with default formations that would get your melee dead against any experienced player was awful. Click-to-attack killing your forces was awful. Stronger tutorials and advice on how to engage your forces usefully would be great. Further reductions in micromanagement would be welcome (I liked tfl's less-accurate archers because of this-- there was less point to the archer dance or the zerk zig).

I would like less aoe damage and more aoe troop disruption. Instead of dwarves, I'd like to see, say, a wind mage that blows your forces into disarray, or an ice mage that freezes your troops, putting them in danger from the opponent's melee.

I would like to be able to zoom out a lot farther. Myth often felt very cramped, particularly on the higher-mesh maps.

I have an idea that it would change things significantly if army sizes were larger-- if instead of 27 wars, 45 thrall, 24 bows on desert, you maxed out at something like 200 wars, 300 thrall, 150 bows. But I'm hesitant to put that on my wishlist, because I'm not sure if it would change things for the better or not. And it would probably force a lot of other changes to work well.

I'm a little frustrated with this question, because it feels like I'm just finding tiny little improvements to make, rather than big 'crazy ass' things. Myth was so well done, though, that it's hard to find big things that would improve it.

I have a question for the Deadhold team as well: Given that you're advertising your experience with Myth 3, what do you think went wrong with M3, and how will you avoid it this time?
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Re: Deadhold

Postby punkUser » 12 Sep 2014, 08:18

fisj wrote:2) Making a PC game, and a tablet or console game is making 2 or three games. RTT on a console sounds like (to put it nicely) a nightmare. Tablet _could_ work very well, but again the tempo and response will never match a PC, and pitting someone on a tablet, vs a PC in an MP match would be pretty one sided.

Absolutely, I think it's important to focus the effort especially with such a (currently) small team :)

fisj wrote:3) In my opinion, multiplayer on mobile isn't mature enough, or a strong enough demographic within mobile.

True for concurrent multiplayer, which is what you'd probably want for this sort of game, but obviously not true for async multiplayer.

Anyways sounds like you guys have things well in hand. I definitely encourage you to follow your core design here and not get too side-tracked or focused on feature creep for the time being, despite all of us having lots of stuff we'd all individually love to see :)

Renwood wrote:Punkuser, does this mean there is currently or you are going to add windows 8 touch enabled monitor support?

Yes, that has been there since 1.8. Didn't you watch the 1.8 promo video? :) It can definitely improve if more people start using it (smoothness, inertia, etc.) but what is there is already reasonably playable and great for watching films.
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